Sunday, October 9, 2011

Supports vs. Base Conversation Deadlock

Blazer

Wooh! That poll is SO close. Almost everytime I check the amount of votes are within 2 of each other, if not the same #/%. It's crazy intense--but with that being said, which do you think is really better, and why? Do you prefer them to be in-battle and take-up turns or be part of a menu and be outside of the battle?

Oh and since I know I'm supposed to be talking about the translation, progress is going well. We're almost 12.5% done with base conversations already. Snow is Slow (he's the other translator who does the main dialog) but I'll get his ass rolling eventually whether he likes it or not. *wink* Graphics have sort of taken a halt as Zak and Arch are busy and I am waiting for them BUT there's not much left to do in that department so don't let it bother you, PROGRESS IS GOOD. ^_^

80 comments:

  1. Maybe it's because I've mostly only played the GBA games, but... I like the support conversations.. Even if it takes up a turn it kinda makes the battle more fun and gives me a cute image of characters chatting it up amongst battle. I dunno, I like it.

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    Replies
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      Delete
  2. Personally, I like how FE9 handled the supports, with them not taking up valuable turns on the battle field (making them somewhat of a non-option on harder playthroughs, such as FE7 HHM and FE6 HM) so base conversations all the way for me.

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  3. Actually I'm interested as to how you guys are going to handle changing the 50音 to the 26 letter Latin alphabet and re-directing names to go into the right places, while making everything still go in alphabetical order.

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  4. I enjoy the FE9 style supports as well, because mid-battle, I normally have to go out of my way to get certain supports (other than Roy/Lilina in FE6), so I would rather initiate them at the base or the prep screen.

    Also keep it up on the translation, I am so happy you guys keep chugging along :D

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  5. Base all the way. I always ended up skipping the support or forgetting about them when I am in the heat of battle. the base ones are nice when your not in battle mode.

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  6. The Base conversations are far better, take less time, and make more sense. No one would talk about painting and gormet food in a battle, but at a base it makes sense. By the way, will this game have supports? *slowpoke

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  7. I like both the same. I wish I could vote for both. Also great to find out how fast this is progressing.

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  8. how much of the main story is translated

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  9. I'm more into base Conversation. The reasons were already listed, like you don't have to make your characters stand to each other and therefore waste some turns or you don't keep forgetting them in die heat of battle, because they're in the base... yeah.

    And you're doing great! :3~ Thank you very much for your hard work! Keep up the good work!

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  10. Base Conversations, without a doubt. I find that supports, particularly the strange ones (like Rennac/Tethys) are horrible for your turn count, and boring to set up, even if you don't play for efficiency.

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  11. Hi FE12 trans. team,

    I really think that you guys have some serious progress going here! (considering that you all have other lives and dont beat the !@#$ out of this stuff everyday/allday). Base Conversations add more to the plot, so i would say that we should put the supports after the base conversations. I really think that you can play this game without any support and that support is just that "add-on" that is basically random !@#$ that nintendo adds on to make the game programing seem more asian (when it doesn't do !@#$). Just a question (don't want to offend you/ seem impatient): When will you finish? (not everything, just the translation of the base conversations - that's all that i need)

    BTW: =3 @Blazer
    From,
    maru-chan

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  12. I voted for Shadow Dragon. Seriously, I never cared about the characters in any game except the first one I played, because they're not that deep.

    If I had to pick one or the other, though, base conversations are better. FE9 did it perfectly, apart from the fact that very few units I like support each other. I don't know HOW the FE6/7/8 expect you to get any of the supports that take 40 or 80 turns per support level without destroying your Tactics rating.

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  13. Kinda noob question but is this patch for a fe12 ROM?

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  14. @Anonymous

    Yes it is a patch for a FE12 ROM

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  15. @Illumio0000

    Redirecting and reordering names in the dictionary is easy, but we're still thinking about how to reconfigure the symbols in the contents. So that's 2 problems solved, 1 more to fix.

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  16. Haha, wow, so many comments. Here I go:


    @Kiki Haha I know right. It makes it feel like an army of real people instead of generic soldiers, y'know.

    @Andrew yeah I agree, unless it's FE8 you don't always have time to just wait around and get supports going, especially if there are turn limits for certain things or you just want efficiency.

    @Illumio Vincent (Aveyn Knight) answered your question, though I'M curious why YOU'RE curious about our technical issues. :P

    @Anonymous thanks

    @Violent haha I didn't get too many support convos myself on my first playthroughs of games, I just kind of forgot them, like an unused feature. XD

    @Boomsickle this game has base conversations which are the substitute of supports in some ways, but by no means the equivalent. i.e. no, no supports (unless I totally missed something). Support bonuses are a yes though.

    @Escorian haha I wanted to add an option for that but I felt like it was redundant and would just divide the votes up too much.

    @Anonymous not much sir "i'm one of those people who importunes about translation progress" haha

    @Yuufa mhmm, and thanks

    @Pandorakun haha yeah in terms of efficiency supports don't help though that's what multiple playthroughs are for XD

    @Anonymous this game has base convos, not supports. Base convos might take up to 6 months but we really don't know when we'll finish, if we did we would have told you already, we know everyone wants to know when everything is going to be finished... XD

    oh and don't be so happy with me cuz I'm not even the cool person, it's TheEnd doing all the cool work at the moment. I worked my ass off already, all I have to do is respond to all your comments (just because I like to be respectful to everyone) and proofread shit ATM.

    @Anonymous hahaha I thought that option was a total joke in that most people despised Shadow Dragon and it's lack of plot. I think that most games DID have less generic characters and that their depth was only ever truly revealed in supports (though games like FE7, which had more dialog per character in the main game, definitely displayed more personality from the start).


    @Anonymous (for the Xth time) yes it is, the (J) version, not that there is any other version

    @Illumio0000 thanks for answering ahead of me XD

    @Aveyn Knight oh hey Vincent! *high-fives*

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  17. I preefer Base conversations, that way i can understand the story and show it to more people instead of looking for a script of the original one, it makes me sad when i spoil something to myself.

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  18. There's an option for 'neither' but no option for 'both'?? I like them both! They both bring things to the table.

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  19. @Blazer I agree about shadow dragon not having much of a storyline. I rented it from gamefly sure glad I didn't buy it and was like.... ZzZzZzZ ok your going back.

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  20. Support conversations are just a pain to get through. If the support conversations could always be like the simple, meaningless ones from Radiant Dawn, and there were as many Base conversations as there used to be Supports, then the story line of the game would be far better to understand without being forced to replay it a hundred and four times.

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  21. By the way, Shadow Dragon ROCKS in terms of actual game play (which is really what matters in a *game*), but you simply can't expect a remake of such an old game to have the same kind of character development as its huge sequels.

    Personally, I prefer Shadow Dragon to Rekka no Ken. There, I said it.

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  22. ^hahahah well i'll live with that, I do agree that SD could only be so good given what the original was... and I personally hated how FE10's supports were meaningless, it kind of pissed me off how bland and uninteresting and GENERIC they were. They weren't even worth my time, IMO. -_-

    @everyone else I'm low on time so I'm just going to kind of nod my head and agree with/acknowledge all your comments XD

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  23. I don't know why some people are so hard on SD, I found the game to be just fine; the only thing I hated was killing my characters to unlock secret chapters. I'm the kind of player that will restart a chapter no matter how far I'm or how hard it is if a character dies, so having to let characters die dimmed my enjoyment.

    I like base conversation better than support conversations because of the turn count and awkwardness of pairing characters that usually are nowhere each other in combat. But I don't mind conversations mid-battle if I don't have to keep two characters together for like 120 turns. I kinda liked how it was in TRS, since it had both base conversations and mid-battle conversations, and the only requirement was for both character to participate in the same battle.

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  24. Hi again. I'm the anonymous who voted for Shadow Dragon. I genuinely liked the game. I wouldn't argue it is objectively among the best in the series, but I enjoyed it the second most out of the series, losing only to FE7. FE7 is the first I played, so I'm biased.

    It has a lot to do with expectations. I hung out on forums with people who played it as soon as the Japanese ROM hit, but I waited for the American release. I spent months hearing about how terrible it was, so I went in with practically no expectations. I was pleasantly surprised by it. I didn't like the gaiden requirements, but everything else about it was spot-on for me.

    As I mentioned, I don't care about support conversations. FE7 is the only game in the series where I cared about the characters enough to read the support conversations, and even there, many of the characters are pretty flat. A lot of the same archetypes are reused from game to game, so I never felt the need to dig deep into another big helping of the same thing.

    From a gameplay perspective, there isn't a huge difference between the two, but base conversations are a little more convenient. From a story perspective, base conversations and support conversations both offer interesting ideas. Either one is fine, as long as you're not asking me to force my characters to stand immediately adjacent to each other for hundreds of turns.

    The GBA games would have been much better if supports grew by chapter instead of by turn. Shadow Dragon would have been much better if its gaiden requirements had been straightened out. (I wonder how hard it would be for a fan to patch those things?)

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  25. ^I could have probably hacked the game to not need the stupid gaiden requirements but I never thought that enough people wanted it that it was worth my time.

    And you have an interesting perspective on everything, Anonymous, I like how you realize things like since FE7 is the first you played, you're biased, and how archetypes are (unavoidably) reused throughout games (there can only be so many original ideas that aren't similar to others... eventually they start to seem 'the same' because through a broad perspective, they are so similar).

    @luzy-fool people are hard on SD because of it's lack of a detailed plot and good/detailed characters, odd Gaiden requirement, graphics that are generally viewed as poor, and lack of awesome new features (I think the Forge and the Reclass were the main ones that attracted attention IIRC, and Reclass was disliked by most people because it made characters "less unique" by making them easier to replace).

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  26. Anonymous who likes Shadow DragonOctober 12, 2011 at 5:59 PM

    Yeah, it's probably not a very high priority to hack SD. The game would get like one more playthrough out of me. While that is one of the biggest complaints about it, I don't think it would do much to change opinion about the game. I wasn't really asking for it, just thinking aloud.

    Fixing FE7's support system, though, would make me ecstatic. I'm a programmer with no experience in ROM hacking, and it would probably be a very difficult first project, but I may look into it for my own sake some day.

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  27. ^lol@name

    and fix what exactly? :P

    and yes I clearly have no life that I check this so often

    ...and whoever takes that seriously has no sense of humor

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  28. Anonymous who likes Shadow DragonOctober 13, 2011 at 2:14 PM

    Fix it so that every pair that grows at a rate of n support points per turn instead grows at a rate of 10n (or so) support points for every chapter they are deployed together. For example, Hector and Eliwood gain 30 support points for every chapter they are both deployed, instead of gaining 3 support points for every turn they stand next to each other. Support conversations would still happen in battle.

    I would have to experiment with the rate a little, and special cases like Renault would have to be taken care of, but that's the general idea.

    It would require injecting some ASM into some existing code that's already run at the start of each chapter, but it seems feasible.

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  29. Oh, I didn't mean to say that the Radiant Dawn-style supports should *replace* the more detailed support conversations. What I meant was that during battle, you should have the short, snappy (and most importantly, re-assignable) supports, but then during the Base sections, each character should have conversations with certain others that show their personality and development throughout the game, which would be similar to the supports from pre-FE10 games, without actually affecting their in-battle bonuses. That's how my ideal Fire Emblem game would be.

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  30. ^Oh I see I think that makes a little more sense and is an interesting take.

    @Anonymous I doubt it'd be impossible but IMO the GBA FE games are so old (almost 10 years...) that it's not even worth making an ASM hack for that. But I do agree that it's more convenient for them to be more on deployment instead of being next to each other for a turn, though the latter seems more sincere and feels like an actual relationship (like when people say "I'll protect you" or "Let's fight together" and they actually stand next to each other as a team and actually get stronger because of that... I feel like that's awesome. :D).

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  31. I love FE but I don't play it for the story. I know there's almost always something about dragons or reviving dragons, and that this country invaded that country. The only FE where I kinda paid attention to the story was FE4. FE is cliched, and if it was a book there's no way I would read it. What I do pay attention and what I like about FE are the conversations between characters outside of the main story line.

    From what I've heard, there wasn't much to the original SD and people (at least from Japan) still like it. The graphics din't bother me, and sure like them better than the original.

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  32. I Would rather prefare support convos, thought it causes you a turn, but by doing this you get your mind off of the routine fights, and also gets to know about our characters "personly", thus having said that base convos makes no different in battle, but my vote goes for support......!

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  33. Actually, I rather liked the RD style of supports. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hated how generic they were, but the ability to reassign supports as needed as well as having the information presented to you directly was pretty awesome in my opinion.

    Also, how DO the Base conversations work in this game? Do you get a limited number of conversations, or could you ostensibly have conversations with everyone in your army in say 1 or 2 playthroughs?

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  34. @Pandorakun Reassigning supports seems kind of... superficial? not sure if that's the right word...

    The main character has base conversations (that act like supports) with most of the other playable characters. Some go from C-A and others are just 1 support ("C"). They mainly give insight to the other characters and help build relationships between the main character and the other characters. I'm sure Serenes has more info on it...

    @EdDy yeah I feel ya, it's spelled "personally" though haha

    @luzy-fool FE11's graphics weren't great but of course they are better than the game they're almost 20 years older than, the original FE1... XD

    and FE is cliched but what isn't cliched anymore :P

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  35. Keep on the good work guys. :)
    Seriously I am awestruck by your efforts. I kinda know how hard it is to code (given that i am studying computer science, though I'm just a novice :P ). Just A small question-- how many years(I hope my estimation of order of time is right) of coding did it take for you to sharpen your skills so that you can hack a game of this magnitude ?????
    -cheers :)

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  36. Well, "hacking" in its more basic form and coding as in a programming language or something similar are a bit different. Hacking is more or less figuring out how the system works, breaking into it, editing it, and then resetting up the system to function normally but with the edits. Coding is usually done from scratch or by basis of other coding and has its own language and is often a formal science, whereas hacking takes skills like logic, a little intuition, trial and error, and reasoning... hacking is probably the easier of the two.

    Granted some hacking does take programming edits but that's just learning another programming language and how to apply it to another system--it's not all that crazy as people might make it out to be, but it's definitely not easy. This game uses various types of assembly.

    Hopefully that sort of answers your question, it's kind of late and I'm kind of tired... XP

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  37. @Blazer

    Why am I curious about the way you guys are doing things?

    I'm a tech geek. anything that fascinates me in the technological aspect, I'll ask about.

    Hopefully that cures your curiosity for my curiosity.

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  38. Ah, okay. I'll try not to get annoyed by it. ;)

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  39. i extracted all of the files to a new folder and tried to combine the patch and the drag rom here folder, and the same error message came up that says the xdelta thing cant mix them. what should i do

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  40. Sorry, I don't understand your broken English... All I can say is that once you download the patch, you have to extract those files, then obtain an FE12 (J) ROM (can't tell where, and don't ask or you're banned) and drag it onto the file that says "Drag ROM Here". ._.

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  41. i did that , now what

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  42. you play the new ROM... has the "-patched" extension I think...

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  43. but how do i play it? it wont let me open the patched file

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  44. Do you have an emulator?

    Actually before any of this have you even played a ROM before on your computer? If not, look up some more things, because I suspect you are new to the emulation world.

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  45. no, i have used the vba emulator, but is there a ds emulator? if so, where is it?

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  46. Yes, there's one called desmume and one called no$gba. Look them up.

    I'll be playing this on hardware, though =D

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  47. i got the application and my patch was call SX-FE12-patch.NDS, and then i tried it, but it wasnt in english

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  48. Hi,

    i followed all the given intructions and managed to get the game patched. But for some reason it is still 82.1 MB. It still worked at the start, but when i came to move my character around, the game restarted with the first dialogue. I hope you have any idea about what i did wrong and what i should do now :D

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  49. If you're using No$GBA, then that's your problem right there. I could never get it to work on anything but DeSmuME.

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  50. Ah thanks!
    Now it does work :D
    But isn't it possible to play this game on a regular ds?

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  51. You need to get a pirate device. I think such things are legal (though using them for piracy is not). I bought mine ages ago, I don't know what the current best ones are. Try asking at gbatemp.

    Mine was a great investment, it saved me from buying lots of bad DS games and let me try out a bunch of good ones before I bought them.

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  52. I have the patched file that ends in patched.NDS(I used the rom from dicastia, it was called 5097), then I opened the patched file with DeSmuMe.dev, and its not in english. What should i do?

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  53. Why are you using the .dev for desmume? Use the .exe. Also make sure you patched it completely correctly. Always double check.

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  54. where do you get the .exe version? and can you explain the "right way" to make the patch so i can double check? thanks

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  55. you get the .exe version off the Desmume website (the latest version should be 0.9.6 or 0.9.7).

    The right way to do it is to drop the non patched Japanese ROM into the file that says "drag ROM here" after you've downloaded and extracted the ROM patcher from this website.

    also I hope you are using windows, because if you are using a mac, I have no idea how to help you.

    if this didn't help you, I can make a video on my YouTube and post the link here so you have a visual representation, but only if you need it.

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  56. what is the website??

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  57. nevermind but that video would help when would it be up?

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  58. I really could use it

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  59. Ahaha, maybe the team needs to put up even more detailed patching instructions or something...

    Having not downloaded any of the patches, I can't be much help here, but it seems like most people are confused about how they go about playing the patched file.

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  60. no, most people work it fine because they're familiar with the area... I made it pretty simple but I suppose I could afford a video. I'll try and come up with something ASAP

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  61. thanks that would be a big help, what would you call it? and when would the earliest it would be up?

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  62. I've recorded a video and it should be up today. All I have to do is edit it.

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  63. Ok, the video has been edited and is currently rendering. When the video is up and live on YouTube, I'll post a link to it here.

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  64. Thanks you guys are awesome

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  65. Here is the video link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heXrVD6qqbk

    Right now the video is unlisted. It'll stay unlisted unless the people who are making the patch want it to become public.

    You can still see the video even if the video is set to unlisted, in case you did not know.

    Hopefully this helps :D

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  66. so some parts are still in japanese because the translation isnt finished? but on the video on this website, all of the things, like dialogue, were in english. why is that

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  67. This patch isn't complete. Only answer choices and items are in English. (The dialogue that you see in the pictures they post here are only to serve as to tell you where they are; that's not in the patch yet). Currently they're translating dialogue and when next they update, there'll be 97% translated.

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  68. why is the rom first 128 MB and after 82.2?

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  69. Because the patch trims out unnecessary MB. This process is called scrubbing. It's just to take up less space on your computer.

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  70. when will the next update be?

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  71. That, I do not know. Though it'll be a major one for sure. Probably will put the version into the 3.x.

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  72. @Illumio since you've already done one would you mind if I posted it?

    and while I'm at it I should clarify the video thing since some people are expecting translated dialog (which is ATM a WIP)

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  73. so until the next version is released, the dialogue will be in japanese

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  74. Yeah, and the next version will be complete. The current version is just for people who only want to be able to get past the game while having some English so they can know how to play the game and the names of stuff. It's like a demo.

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  75. so the next release will be the complete translation?

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  76. @Blazer You can use it.

    Though I do think i messed up in the very end. I was trying to say at the very end that the dialogue's still not in English just I messed up and it came out wrong :/

    Plus I believe you guy's translation will get really close to being fully translated. I dunno about 100% but somewhere really close (like 97%, 98%. My main example of what I mean is that the FE6 ROM patch itself isn't 100%, it's forever at 97%).

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  77. do you know if the release will be this year?

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  78. My guess would be that they might be done sometime between end-December of this year and early-April of next year.

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