Thursday, February 16, 2012

Poll ->

Blazer

UPDATE 8:08 PM: ARGUMENTS ON THIS BLOG POST FOR BOTH NAMES HAVE BEEN UPDATED. PLEASE REREAD AND COMMENT OR VOTE TO REFLECT YOUR DECISION.

Regarding the poll on the right I'm about to make: there are two choices. Samto, and Samuto.

He is this guy:



A myrmidon. From SF: " A mercenary hired by Lang. A bit of a joker. Tries to pass himself off as Nabarl."

サムトー SAMTO Samto

Kana - CODENAME - Most commonly used name at the moment

Why Samuto:

This is what the kana is most close to in romaji. サムトー = Sa mu to with an extension on the last syllable (means it's slightly longer). It's a real name with many results and is an accurate translation. Furthermore, it has a very eastern feel to it which fits Samuto's class, the myrmidon. It can be pronounced multiple ways in English (e.g. with differing vowel accents) but the 'u' tends to be soft, almost silent.

Why Samto:

Samto is the most commonly used name currently used to reference him. It is generally the most "logical" (though that's just a common opinion) translation for the character. It has precedence and is short and sweet. It also feels more "localized" than "Samuto", though this is also just a common opinion and not fact. In the argument against it, The End says "mt is a fairly awkward and uncommon combination of letters in English.".

Important Note:

We're asking this because we want to be sure we're picking a good name and the decision is not 100% final right now. We want to hear any possible arguments in the comment section: we will read, but not respond to, your arguments (though we may answer questions). We also want to just get an idea of which name is more popular with the intention that it will reflect the argument with the best reasoning and basis behind it. However, this does NOT mean the most popular option will be the chosen name. What the team decides is based on the strength of the argument and reasoning, and while there is "strength in numbers" there is also "quality over quantity" so everything will be take into account with a grain of salt.

Thank you for your understanding and co-operation.

72 comments:

  1. Definitely Samto. Including the ム pronunciation in English would imply a stress on the second syllable, like "sah-MOO-toh" which just seems at odds with how the u is nearly silent in Japanese.

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  2. What ganduro said!

    Since Samuto is pronounced Samto as far as I know (just like ganduro just pointed out, that the 'u' is silent).
    Reading Samuto like that, would make me say Samuto as well, instead of Samto, which it should be.

    Additionally Samuto looks just wrong... I can't say why, it just does.

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  3. Dunno much about Japanese, but I guess I know enough to agree with the others that the "u" would be fairly silent. Soooo, I voted Samto.

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  4. Wow. What a sad poll. The slightly revised kana with a silent letter removed vs. the pure kana. Can I cast my vote for a localization, or are those opinions just ignored so that they can't be voted on? Where's Santo/Santos as an option? It's a viable westernization of the name.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. >Santo
      >Saint in Spanish/Portuguese

      Delete
    2. And? Luke is Greek for "from Lucanus." Might want to change that back to Rook (the kana), since it's applying a meaning that isn't originally there.

      Delete
    3. And therefore it sounds incredibly silly to my ears, since we're talking about a charlatan.

      Not to mention the invalid part, but we both know that's irrelevant to you.

      Delete
  5. I think they're both really crap names. It doesn't feel right to me pronouncing 'Samto' without placing a vowel, 'b', or 'p' between the two syllables. And 'Samuto' just sounds silly in my opinion. (No offence to anyone called Samuto!)

    Another thing: 'Samto' doesn't seem like the kind of name that you'd ever find in an official translation. I know you want to keep as close to the developers' intentions as possible, but seeing as you saw fit to change Belf's name to the more Western 'Vergil' (which I agree sounds much better than the original), maybe you could alter 'Samto'. I don't know too much about translating from Japanese, so I don't know if this is a stupid question, but are there any other possible interpretations than 'Samto'?

    If I really had to choose between the two, I'd go for 'Samuto', simply because it's easier for me to say, as long as you ignore the Japanese pronunciation and put more stress on the 'u'.

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    Replies
    1. Pretty much this although I ended up going for Samto because it's closer to Santo which frankly I'm gonna end up using anyway.

      Delete
  6. "Samto" is the official name given in the trading card game, so I'll go with that.

    http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110929062124/fireemblem/images/thumb/d/d9/Samto_TCG1.jpg/268px-Samto_TCG1.jpg

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  7. Actually, wouldn't it just be easier to call him Sam?

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  8. Two options are in contention; the rest were considered, but didn't have enough support from team members to be on the poll and thus be a viable option.

    @Graham no, I won't explain why but please see the above remark as to why only those two names are on the poll.

    @everyone, thinking both names suck is fine; while this doesn't mean much, personally, I've found lots of names in games that I've disliked. Big whoop.

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  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  10. Testing, testing. My comments keep disappearing because I disagree with "the man." Just wanna make sure that my voice isn't being silenced or anything :P.

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  11. Can I vote for the "get a new translator" option? That one's kinda growing on me.

    inb4 deleted

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    Replies
    1. They couldn't find many people willing to do this, so they had to settle with me and Agro

      It's sad but true

      Delete
  12. samto sound better

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  13. What? you deleted your own comment. And why would I silence your voice? As long as it's not about ROM sharing or something else illegal or vulgar you can complain about how bad we are for all I care.

    lol@CT "when the people in charge aren't doing what you want, KICK'M OUT AND GET NEW LEADERS!"

    that's the motto of America in many ways roflmao

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  14. Being a Japanese III student myself, I can't fully agree with what ganduro said about U's being nearly silent.

    U's tend to be silent more often with su (す) if it's in the middle of a word:

    sushi (すし) is pronounced as sushi (with slight stress on the u) while desu (です) is pronounced des (dropped u).

    However I see it ONLY happen with su. With Mu, it tends to stay not dropped. In words like chijimu (縮む) and muzukashii (難しい), the U is heard loud and clear.

    In my opinion, if I am stuck with only the two options, I would choose Samto, even though I dislike revised romaji.

    If I had more than the two, I'd choose Sam. Not only is it a name that is common in English, it also flows better in English. My point being is that in English I don't believe that there are any words that have a "mt" sound in the middle of them.

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    1. As someone who did Japanese V in the past, you're close but a bit off. :] It's not just "su," but when a "u" syllable is non-stressed. In 縮む and 難しい, the "mu" sound is prominent, just as the "su" is in すし. I can see how you'd think that, since nonstressed "su" endings are so common in Japanese (the aforementioned "desu," plus a large number of verb common forms). However, take for example 楽勝 rakushou, which is pronounced more like "rak-show," or the romanized ガム gum, which is pronounced much like the English word. The only exception to this is "nu," since there's already a straight "n" character to end words with.

      Delete
    2. Then there's always the ~shita (~した) ends as well. Or really any shi in the middle of any word will have that dropped I.

      Also I dunno if my school allows past III, I wish they did, since I am only in my second year of high school.

      Right now in class we're learning about ~tari form. It's an interesting concept.

      Delete
    3. 勉強したり単語と文法を練習したり、良い成績を受ける!頑張って!

      Delete
    4. I already get good grades, but I'll be sure to never forget -tari form. I mean I have other forms down.

      Thanks for the good luck anyway!

      Delete
  15. Oh and also my comment was being written before the revision above!

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  16. I deleted the comment, then reposted it as a reply (also removing the word "bullshit" and censoring myself) to your comment. I checked back, the reposted comment was gone. I also had a comment to TheEnd's comment deleted before I reposted it.

    Now that you bring up American politics, this is sorta like American voting. Samuto vs. Samto, Republicans vs. Democrats. It's not a real choice, it's just two things that look like different options but are, at their cores, the same exact thing. Can I vote for change please? I'd appreciate seeing actual options put up in a poll (and, yeah, that includes options that aren't supported by the conservative majority in the back room of the translation project).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. >Poll options
      >>Samto
      >>Samuto
      >>I can't decide

      It's subtle, I know, but there's no "other (explain)" option there. Unless somebody can think of an awesome (and valid) alternative, which seems unlikely.

      Delete
    2. We've got a valid alternative, you just won't let us vote on it. Santo is a perfectly valid localization of the name, it's even rich with irony to boot. You, however, won't accept any option besides Samto or Samuto, which are the only "valid" options. How can we present something that you'll accept when you'll accept nothing other than the pathetic "choices" presented to us?

      Delete
    3. Not that I see a point in arguing so defiantly over the name of a video game character, but I think I agree with you on that.

      Delete
    4. That's easy, you can't. And since we're going for romanizations that follow the original kana and you kind of refuse to acknowledge it, that's just natural.

      But Arch, just as you take pride of not being bound to the original names (which are sometimes quite terrible, I agree, but they're still the names given by the creators), that very same lack of commitment made you abandon the project for months instead of making the changes you deemed necessary.

      You had six or more months to get them done - and I, at least, would have respected those choices, as Vergil proves - but you didn't. You've wasted your chance. Now you will have to deal with the powerlessness that is consequence of your inaction.

      Delete
  17. Well, there are people out there with letters in their names that seem fairly awkward and uncommon, so Samto isn't that strange to see i'd say. However, if the kanji is more closer to Samuto, then go ahead and use that version.

    Also, the whole "'u' in his name makes me think it's pronounced as this instead of the right way" is kinda weak. I mean, the American version used "Caeda" instead of "Sheeda" or "Shiida". The "Cae" in her name may make you think it's pronounced as "Say" or "Kai A", but it's still pronounced as "She" for "She Da". Just learn to make the 'u' silent, that's all.

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  18. Just a quick thought but is it at all possible that his name really might be Santo (Spanish for Saint)? I love the way that sounds. I also kinda like Sam. In the end I prefer Samuto over Samto though, hits the ear better.

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    1. His defining trait is that he's a silly charlatan impersonating a killer, so...

      The main issue with Sam is that there's also Samson.

      Delete
    2. That's hardly a valid argument against Sam: remember Amy and Aimee in Radiant Dawn?

      Delete
    3. Think about it
      Sam
      Samson

      Sam and his son (the latter being way older)

      I don't know about you, but I find that thought rather silly.

      Delete
    4. So, silly fact that is somewhat relevant to the discussion.

      Samson derives from Greek Sampson, which derives from Hebrew Shimshon, probably from shemesh "sun."

      Samuel (the proper name of most English-speaking male Sams) derives from Greek Samouel, from Hebrew Shemiel, which is literally the "Name of God," from shem "name" + El "God."

      Sources: http://etymonline.com/?term=Samson and http://www.etymonline.com/?term=Samuel

      Thus, Samson most definitely does NOT mean Sam's son.

      Think about it, most names that end in son are LAST names (Ericsson, Anderson, etc.) and every character in the Fire Emblem series has gone by their FIRST name (Well, I'm assuming this, but every character I've seen reacts as if their name is their first name or nickname, not their last name).

      Thus, despite what you may think, a logical person would deduce that a Sam and a Samson are PROBABLY unrelated.

      As a result, Sam is a perfectly valid name.

      Delete
    5. First, I've seen Anderson as a first name.

      Second, a name's true etymology doesn't keep people from guessing what it means without research.

      And third, Sam isn't and will never be a valid romanization of サムトー, and invalid romanizations aren't being considered here.

      Delete
  19. I prefer Samuto over Samto simply because it sounds better to the Western ear. Besides, I don't understand why he can't simply be called "Sam".

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  20. I'd prefer any of the options being suggested here in the comments over Samto and Samuto, frankly. Samto sounds horribly awkward, and Samuto sounds like a name that was directly and awkwardly translated from Japanese.

    Sam, Santo, or Santos all sound more like names.

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  21. I like consistency, so I'd prefer if it stayed as Samto, like in Shadow Dragon. Why change it when the official translation had already decided? I don't really like the idea of changing what's been set by NoA (or EU, whichever you guys prefer), because then it's just a nagging detail. The localization for FE11 was smooth, and there's really no reason for you guys to change it, especially if it's such a negligible detail. Easier and more consistent if you guys just stick to what's there already.

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    Replies
    1. Samto wasn't in FE11, mate.

      Look guys, I admit, I'm the one who proposed Samuto in the first place. Mostly it was because I googled it and found out that Samuto was a relatively common name but also because Samto just didn't sit right with with me. A lot of people are complaining that it "doesn't look localised", but there is precedent for this kind of thing.

      Let's take Shiida for example. Many of you know her as Caeda, but in Europe, she's widely known as Shiida because the translation team there simply left it at that. People also seemed to be worried about mispronunciation, but FE7's Sain has undergone the same treatment. His Japanese name actually indicates that it should be pronounced like "sign" but we all go with "sane". Further still, we have people like "Izuka" in FE9/FE10, whose name (イズカ) could have been localised as "Izka" but weren't. Neimi's up on the list, too. My point is, it's been done before, and no one seems to have had a problem with it. Should Neimi have been "Naymee"? Izuka "Izka"? Sain "Sine"? Just because a name looks like it came straight from the Japanese version doesn't make it wrong.

      Delete
    2. I still have no idea how to pronounce Neimi. Is it with an 'i' sound?

      Delete
    3. I've pronounced Neimi as "Nemmy." And I guess Sain could be pronounced as Sine now that I think about it.

      Delete
  22. Samto just sounds better to me - i have no idea why but it just seems to roll off the tongue a little easier.

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  23. No offense to anyone out there, but I don't really like any of the two :/
    If I had to pick, I'd pick Samuto, because at least it doesn't sound like "Sam-TOE" or something. Still, though, Samuto is still a bit (if not as much) awkward.........

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  24. I like Samto more... because it's sounds like the Spanish word Santo...

    PS: I will love to play this game when it's translated to English {and I'm from Spain}... and I have been reading this blog since the past 2 or 3 months...

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  25. Santo, hands-down. None of that m nonsense, you can have a Spanish charlatan.

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    Replies
    1. Not one called "saint", nope.

      Delete
    2. The funny part is that it's the word for "saint" in more than one language. Take Hindi, for example. The word is "sant", which is close enough.

      No, I don't like Santo, or Samto, why do you ask?

      Delete
  26. Y ecsactly dos it mater? As u gys ar sowing, it dosnt mater wat WE tink, jst wat U tink. If wi say "Santo", wch is th bst opton, u soot it dwn. "Samto" nd "Samuto" sond acwrd. "Santo", nd "Sam" snd mohc berer.

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  27. Maybe... We could have the one that is more true to the original and then just... you know... put that idea that we had earlier into action--releasing the software that allows us to change the names as we want it (when it is fully released)? I dunno, I'm just a little bothered by the arguing. :C

    Also, TheEnd, just saying... Your comebacks are amusing and interesting to read (IN A GOOD WAY). I keep gaining the urge to say "OOOHHH BURRRRRRNNNNN".

    On a side note, I 'hope' the localization team is using proper vernacular for each character. :3 (Just saying that because I'm just now realizing how townsfolk and random soldiers speak in the era of Marth's games).

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  28. I didn't realize he was already named in Shadow Dragon (I don't even remember himbeing in it). If that's the case then I have to change my vote from Samuto over to Samto for the sake of consistency. I feel it best to leave names unchanged from 11 to 12.

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    Replies
    1. Samuto does not appear and is not named in Shadow Dragon. If he were, we would not be discussing this. The team has already decided to keep all names from SD, no matter how terrible (Caeda.)

      Delete
  29. I've voted for Samto, but my mother language is Dutch and the mt-combination is pretty common in Dutch, so that may affect my choice a bit...

    Anyway, I feel like it's more of a localized name, like you stated in your post. I would also pronounce Samuto like Sa-MOOH-to. Just like Vyland being named Biraku in fan translations: it doesn't feel like a localized name to me.

    PS: Talking about Caeda, why not go with the official European name: Shiida, which is much better in my opinion and I know also in some others' opinions...

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  30. I soooooo don't care. NOA would have localized his name as Samuel anyway lol!

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  31. WOW!!! 54 comments in 1 day and 4 hours, I think it's the most commented post since this blog was opened O.O
    Anyway, I really don't care that much how the character will be named, because both names have good arguments to be chosen by the team, AND it's the team the one who will chose the name anyway, and it's a little hard to take a decision since "Samto" stays true to the japanese pronunciation and "Samuto" stays true to the japanese writting, it's just a matter of likes, but everyone of us have different likes hehe XP
    I personally would prefer "Samto" since it's how it was translated in FE3 and sounds a little better to me, but you're the ones who decide!!!! XD

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  32. So... no one's mentioned Samwise yet... :P

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  33. Maybe Cramto instead of Samto, or Sammy Sosa

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  34. Samto is an anagram for Tomas. Therefore, it should be Samto.

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    Replies
    1. there's already another tomas in the game...

      Delete
  35. Voted Samto. On the pronunciation issue, that never struck me as at all difficult. Sam-to. Unusual, sure, but by no means difficult to say.

    That said, I must confess I find myself intrigued by some further localized suggestions presented in the SF thread, like Santos.

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  36. I would choose Samuto. Basically because we will be reading the material and not hearing it. But more specifically, my reasons are based on a more subtle feeling from my being a hafu (half-Japanese).

    So, my dad is 1st generation Japanese, mom is British English but fluent in Japanese, and I was raised in the states, speaking English. When I was growing up, my parents spoke exclusively Japanese with work relations, friends, and often with each other, but didn't teach it to me, so while I'm not even close to fluent in it, I do have a good ear for the pronunciation, having heard it around me so much and also from time spent with family in Japan. I also got used to the ways my parents pronounced Japanese words to westerners, which often lies somewhere in between Japanese sounding and English sounding.

    It's a subtle thing all around, but mostly pronunciation is very hard to mimic with just spelling. Trying to get an English speaker to say Samuto correctly by spelling it Samto seems, to me, to be problematic on two fronts. One, you don't get the point accurately across anyway. It doesn't exactly sound like Samto either, so if it's not accurate anyhow, why change it? If the answer is, "it's accurate enough," then so is Samuto.

    And two, you lose some of the essence of Japanese in the process, which I think is a bit of a shame. In general, people are likely to pick up more about other cultures and languages if there are more dots to connect, more consistency in what is being presented, especially when it's something as simple as Samuto. We can handle it and, generally speaking, I think we should have to more often.

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  37. I feel like Samto is a really odd name, and i agree that 'mt' is weird. Samuto just seems more English friendly, so there's my vote. But I agree with the arguments for Samto as well, because they do happen to make sense

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  38. In the Trading Card Game of Fire Emblem from Japan, they name this character Samto in "Latin Script" (and they use for the japanese the name サムトー [writed in katagana]).

    Take a look: http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t282/Aquantis/Fire%20Emblem%20Trading%20Card%20Game/Series%206/fe6-024.jpg

    So I vote for SAMTO.

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  39. I still stand by my vote for Samto. It sounds nicer than Samuto (pronounced in my accent, anyway).
    Though one comment earlier mentioned just shortening it to Sam. In which case, I support that idea, too. Mostly because Fire Emblem seems to always take place in a European-ish fantasy medieval setting, and Sam seems a more appropriate name for that setting.

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    Replies
    1. Also, the "Santo" brought up by others sounds good, too.

      Delete
    2. Since above (I'm the same anonymous) I showed that Sam is a perfectly valid name, now I must demonstrate that Sam is an awesome name.

      Hmm.... Do I really have to do this? Sam is an EXTREMELY common English name, most likely that of a few who have voted above (not me, but I have two male friends and a brother, all of whom are awesome, named Sam).

      I happen to believe Sam is an AWESOME choice for a character in Fire Emblem, since there are so many awesome Sams in the world.

      Delete
  40. At first I tend to choose Samuto (or Samutou) as it has eastern feel
    then I saw the official trading card so I'll vote for Samto

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  41. I voted for Samuto because I think it looks better this way xD
    In addition, even though the "u" is silent, it is nevertheless still included in names, for example in "Sasuke" which you pronounce "Saske" and not "Sasooke". :)
    That's my opinion but Samto is just fine as well. ^_^

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